Interview with Mike McCartney As part of Albion's special feature on Liverpool culture in general and the new career-encompassing A Box of Scaffold in particular, I caught up with Mike McCartney to discuss the set and other aspects of his life.
Before we started, Mike was curious to know where I was calling from. When I mentioned the Bristol area, this led to a discussion of the Slapstick Festival, where the Scaffold performed in 2023. I wondered if Mike remembered how that came about?
I don’t, to be honest, but we did have fun performing there. I’d been as a visitor several times before and it’s such a lovely atmosphere, full of like-minded people who are drawn to the art of the silent film. In fact, the first one I went to, I bumped into Mike Palin at the hotel, and we had a catch-up. Funnily enough, the first time I met Michael Palin was in the pre-Python days when he was presenting a local music programme in Bristol called Now, with people like the Yardbirds, the Kinks, and those sort of bands, and we were invited to perform. After we’d done the show we went out with him, and of course it was the first time we had hit Bristol, so we were curious about this ‘scrumpy cider.’ Mike warned us to take it steady and drink half pints, which we totally ignored, and the only thing I can otherwise remember from that night is someone saying to me “Don’t do that, Mike, he’s a policeman!”
After further discussion on the merits of rough cider, we moved on to the box set.
I’m really pleased with it. It’s the definitive box and so we had to get it right. I know the care that Cherry Red and Esoteric put into these things and I’m really happy to get all this stuff out in one place. Cherry Red do these reissues out of love —if you’re involved in something artistic and don’t do it out of love, it shows. Mark (Powell, Esoteric label head/reissue coordinator) came up to my house and took away a suitcase of stuff —that’s all the photos and memorabilia in the 64-page booklet— all from my archive. In order to get the box finished I had to listen to and work my way through the discs. Mark told me to take my time, and as I was listening to it I said to Roger (McGough) “I can’t believe how much I sing on here,” and Roger replied “Well, you’re the singer, I’m the poet, and John (Gorman) was the comedian.”
I mentioned how much I enjoyed some of John’s skits, including Father John (a parody of an apparently drunken, theologically free-associating priest).
In the box you have our BBC performance on Talk of the Town from 1968 (on Disc 6, the DVD with the remastered footage). As we were doing the show, John came on to do Father John and Billy Cotton (Head of Light Entertainment at the BBC) immediately got up from his table and went out to the wagon, where they were recording it, told them to stop the tape, and said “We’ll never get away with broadcasting this,” which is why Father John is missing from the DVD. Ironically, it was one of the best-received items in our show. We also asked the BBC for the film of our performance at the Royal Albert Hall of our song Do the Albert, from a programme celebrating 100 years of the Royal Albert Hall, but they wouldn’t allow it, apparently because we did it at the Albert Hall. We performed it in our white suits with Neil (Innes) and Viv (Stanshall). It was a great bit of TV, but the BBC wouldn’t let us use it. There’s also lots of material from when we performed on BBC Radio 1 shows. Our first single was on Jukebox Journey with Spike Milligan, who was a huge fan of us —Marianne Faithful was on as well, and Georgie Fame. But Spike voted our record a miss —thanks, Spike!
It was fascinating listening to it all, as some of it I’d forgotten. 1967-68 does go back a long way. It was lovely because as you listen to the material, you think, that’s really good. The record with the best production is Fresh Liver (1973), produced by Tim Rice. That’s one of my favourite Scaffold albums.
We then talked about the Scaffold's collaborations with various famous musicians.
None of us played musical instruments so we needed musicians who were talented to take our ideas and turn them into music: like with Lily the Pink, we asked Jack Bruce to perform with us on bass, and he chose that bass line to play. We also had Nicky Hopkins on piano, and our Paul (McCartney) came along. We did this track called Goose and Nicky and our kid were trying to outdo each other on this long take.
We also worked with musicians like Andy Roberts, Zoot Money, Neil Innes, and Viv Stanshall. I remember recording the McGough & McGear album and we got Jimi Hendrix to play with us, because we didn’t conflict with his image. He played on So Much in Love, while on another track (Oh, To Be a Child) there’s Jimi, Jane (Asher) and Jane’s mum all playing the same triangle.
I wondered if there was any more Mike McCartney material left unreleased in the archive?
I don’t think there’s anything left in the archives, no. But it’s like with photos, you look in a cupboard in the roof, find a suitcase and wonder what’s on these tapes. You’ve got to be very careful with the tapes: I went to play one that I’d found and Mark (Powell) was aghast. He explained that it could destroy the tapes, and so before they are played and remastered they have to be taken away and baked to ensure that they will play.
Mike had earlier mentionedFresh Liver, which featured the Scaffold with some of GRIMMS as well, so I asked him about the GRIMMS project.
Of course, it was something that we did when the Scaffold were on hiatus and the Bonzos had split. It was Gorman, Roberts, Innes, McGough, McGear, and Stanshall. It was a lovely concept and the first couple of tours were great, then it ended up being overloaded with too many poets. I left when I had an altercation with a drunk poet and had to put him back in his seat on the bus.
I wondered if there would be a GRIMMS box collecting the material that they recorded?
I’m not sure, to be honest, as I don’t know who has the rights any more.
Mike is highly acclaimed as a photographer, so we moved on to talking about his photographic career.
I started with the family's box Brownie in the back garden trying to capture swallows in flight. When the pictures came back, I knew that I had to learn more to work out how to get much better pictures. I borrowed all the books on photography that I could get my hands on from the library and whilst Paul was learning and working on his music in one room, I was studying and working on my photography in another.
Of course, Brian Epstein famously called you “Flash Harry”…
I never knew that until someone told me after the event! We’d gone to Blackpool for a gig with the lads (The Beatles) in the van, and they’d played the gig —they’d supported Little Richard and Jerry Lee Lewis— loaded the van, and were ready to go. So The Beatles are in the van waiting and Paul said “Hold on, our kid’s not here,” so Brian sent some of them onto the balcony to look into the auditorium and see where my flash was, so they could come down, grab me, and pop me back in the van.
You’ve had quite a career as a photographer.
I’m in the National Portrait Gallery and the Smithsonian in Washington DC so I’ve not done too bad. (Laughter.) I’m still always snapping —last night we saw Tim Rice celebrating his career at the Albert Hall, and I caught a snap of him at the end pulling the Elvis pose. I’ll send that on to him.
Of course, your lad Sonny’s a photographer too.
Actually, we’re catching up with him tonight for a meal. He’s good and has a place in Liverpool where he does custom shoots, weddings, and all sorts, it’s a magic place.
I mentioned how it seems that both he and Paul are incredibly grounded, even after the careers that they’ve had.
It’s being brought up in a working-class Liverpool household. We were brought up well and it’s a reflection of our parents and their beliefs and attitudes, and we’re very much a product of our upbringing. The whole Northern working-class thing: salt of the earth, very sharp, witty, and family-orientated.
This prompted me to reminisce about my upbringing in a Northern working-class household, including my Grandma’s Yorkshire puddings made in a Yorkshire Range fireplace in the farmhouse.
When my Mum died, one thing my Dad spent ages trying to perfect was her Yorkshire puddings, as he missed them from the Sunday dinner. I remember we were sat in the living-room one Sunday and he came in with this tray of perfect Yorkshire puddings and said, “Look at these, boys!” and he’d done it!
I could have spent all afternoon talking to Mike. However, we had to wrap up, so I asked him: if all anyone knows about the Scaffold is Lily the Pink or that he is Paul McCartney’s brother, how would he describe it to them?
I’d say that all they must do is get a copy of A Box of Scaffold and take the time to relax, and listen to and enjoy all of it. Because it’s quite different: you get satirical comedy and the poetry as well as the better-known music. (Thank U Very Much was loved by the Queen Mother and Harold Wilson.) Then, you see, the DVD, although it is without Father John, it does show us in all our facets. I’m proud of this as it displays everything that we could do. There were so many aspects to the Scaffold —Roger’s poetry, John’s comedy, and the songs— and now it’s all here in one box so people can understand what we were about.
Many thanks to Mike McCartney for his time and Matt Ingham at Cherry Red for organising the interview.
